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When it comes to murder, black people should most fear black people

Saturday, March 24, 2012

The Florida shooting death of a young black man by a white Neighborhood Watch bozo is indeed tragic.  But should black people be terribly worried with getting murdered by white bigots and vigilantes? Or is the REAL danger other black males?

Everyone knows the answer, but doesn’t want to talk about it. Certainly Obama doesn’t.

Consider these factoids quoted from Wikipedia:

A United States Department of Justice report which surveyed homicide statistics between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed, 52.2% of the offenders were Black, 45.8% were White, and 2% were Other Races.

Of the victims in those same crimes, 50.9% were White, 46.9% were Black, and 2.1% were Other Races.

The report further stated that “most murders are intraracial” with 86% of White murders committed by Whites, and 94% of Black murders committed by Blacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Murder

If you do the grisly math, each WEEK over 110 blacks are killed by other blacks.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide11.pdf

Where’s the outrage?

Where’s the black leadership?

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69 Responses to “When it comes to murder, black people should most fear black people”

  1. Sacramento Sam says:

    It’s a fact, racial and ethnic gangs always kill and rob more of their own group, whether it’s the Mafia in Italian cities, or racial gangs in the USA. That’s also why so many Latin and African American citizens help the police fight back against these criminals.

  2. Jefferson says:

    Wow. A new “benchmark” reached both by this blog and the author.

  3. Spin Zone says:

    Jefferson is so offended that Wikipedia lists these statistics, he’s been screaming about it for years.. Oh, I see, he’s only NOW offended because the stats appeared on Rostra.

  4. Some bozette (Debbie Terry — a self-described “proud [unthinking] progressive”) tweeted to complain about me capitalizing “Black.” Called it “embarrassing.”

    Really?? THAT’s an issue???

    Gee, I thought the annual MURDER of thousands of U.S. blacks (or Blacks — whatever) was an issue. Silly me.

    BTW, note that in my COMMENTARY I did NOT capitalize “black.” But I did do a “copy and paste” from Wikipedia (in bold) that DID capitalize “Black.” And “White.”

    Take it up with Wikipedia, Debbie. Why do I think you won’t?

    Meantime, where’s the nearest PC altar upon which I can prostrate myself?

  5. Will Rodriguez-Kennedy says:

    So I guess it all has to do with race, not economic and education inequalities.

  6. Debbie Terry says:

    As usual, Rider cannot understand a tweet. I pointed out that Black should be capitalized not that it should not be capitalized. He did not capitalize Black in his initial tweet . I have no idea what Wikepedia does.

    I don’t have any idea what a bozette is. But I am pretty sure it is sexist… no surprise.
    __________
    @SD_TaxFighters And “Black” is capitalized. @SdRostra – unbelievable. Embarrassing. #SanDiego #Republicans
    _____________

    I have unfollowed him so as not to be be upset by his rantings.

    I think it was in very poor taste for San Diego Rostra to post his irrelevant stats. I find it clueless beyond comprehension and totally bereft of compassion for the Trayvon’s family.

    Maybe Rider would next like to post statistics proving that most Iraqi’s are killed by other Iraqi’s.

  7. Interesting question, Will. Do blacks constitute 52% of the nation’s poor? No, 36%. But then, Hispanics compose 35%. How does the homicide rate compare between the two groups?

    Perhaps a better indication is how many blacks are born out of wedlock — 72%, according to some sources.
    http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/72-blacks-born-to-unwed-mothers/

    And is not the “don’t act white” too-often-seen young black mentality concerning getting a good education a consideration? Maybe the black community glorification of the black “gangsta” plays a role as well?

    Where’s the black leadership on this? Lying low, apparently.

    Whatever the reasons, the point still stands — the real homicide risk to blacks is — other blacks.

  8. If you do the grisly math, each WEEK over 110 blacks are killed by other blacks. Where’s the outrage? Where’s the black leadership?
    http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide11.pdf

  9. Sigh. Now Debbie Terry informs me that “black” SHOULD be capitalized. Really? Who says? Where is it written?

    Assuming this is true (Debbie must research this stuff), does that mean that “white” should also be capitalized? Really??

    Not in this CBS News story concerning black homicides (with data that verifies my assertions). Blacks are “blacks,” and whites are “whites.” But, admittedly, “Hispanics” and “Latinos” ARE capitalized in the story. It’s all so confusing.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-3153497.html

    Debbie, contact CBS, demanding a correction/retraction/whatever. I’m sure if you check other news stories, you can find similar “errors.”

    This PC correction business (or is is “pc”?) could become your full-time occupation. It’s a job you are well-suited for.

    And yes, Debbie, bozette IS sexist — just like majorette. In deference to your concerns, I hereby retract my sexist insult, and properly credit you for being a simple[minded] bozo. Truth in labeling, and all that.

  10. Thor's Assistant Thor's Assistant says:

    From:
    http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/capitals.htm

    “Races, nationalities, languages: Swedes, Swedish, African American, Jewish, French, Native American. (Most writers do not capitalize whites, blacks.)”

    The italics are from that page, in case anyone tells us it’s not proper to italicize white and black.

    So, even though grammar guides say differently, we are supposed to capitalize what the PC police tell us to, because they say so.

    As for Debbie’s contention that “it was in very poor taste for San Diego Rostra to post” Rider’s stats, she still isn’t getting it. The stats are from Wikipedia.

    Some readers here may believe that it’s also in very poor taste for us to allow PC drivel from commenters, but we still allow it. Free speech and all, unless it offends someone, of course.

  11. More stuff: Race pimp Jesse Jackson is hyped in the LA TIMES — the headline is his claim that “blacks are under attack.” He’s in hog heaven.
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story

    National article (also in U-T) about how concerned black parents are about racist murder threat. Ignores real threat to young blacks — young blacks.
    http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/mar/25/tp-martin-case-hits-home-for-parents-of-black/

  12. Alger says:

    I am guessing ( definitely not interested enough to research this) that most murders are committed by people close to (usually family) the victim. Hence the preponderance of intra-racial murders, be it Black on Black or White on White.

  13. Kelly Davis says:

    Actually, Mr. Rider, plenty of people are talking about this issue; you’re just not paying attention. Don’t suppose you’ll now be advocating for increased funding for after-school programs in low-income neighborhoods? Or alternatives to incarceration? As a “tax fighter,” you must know that it’s less costly to provide treatment (drug, alcohol, mental health, anger management) combined with community supervision than to put someone in jail.

    The wikipedia entry you quoted is an interesting one—if you continue reading beyond the simple stats that you quoted.

    Speaking of the black community, the turnout for the mayoral forum at the Jacobs Center a couple of weeks ago was incredible. They *are* outraged about these kinds of things. Problem is, y’all up there in places like Poway never turn up to hear what they have to say.

  14. Erik says:

    I fear Richard you are missing the bigger point – that Zimmerman took it upon himself to assume that an African American male in a gated community was so “out of place” and that of such an threat was so dire as to require him to heroically intervene. Or that, outweighing Trayvon Martin by 100 pounds, Mr Zimmerman could, in the eyes apparently of Florida law, be so threatened that he was justified in pulling a gun and shooting the child.

    To assert that the roles could have been reversed and Trayvon would not have been arrested stretches the limits of credibility.

    Finally, while the statistics you cite are true, they also are a bit beside the point. We all should be struck by the fact that during the past 2 weeks scores of Americans of African descent with college educations and professional backgrounds have come forward and talked about how they still feel compelled to discuss with their sons “rules” that should chill our souls if we believe in freedom.

    As some of you know, this subject strikes particularly close to home. Our family was blessed through adoption with an African American son. He is one of the few AA in our neighborhood and now, for the first time, I wonder how he will be treated as a teen if out on a rainy night coming back to OUR community and whether he will be viewed with suspicion.

  15. Here’s some more mind-numbing homicide findings on this topic, quoted from a research paper from the Violence Policy Center. (NOTE: Most readers will NOT want to spend time reading this — I posted it for the junkies):

    National Data

    According to the FBI SHR data, in 2008 there were 6,841 black homicide victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United States was 18.07 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was 4.93 per 100,000. For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.99 per 100,000.

    Additional information contained in the FBI SHR data on black homicide includes the following.

    Gender

    Of the 6,841 black homicide victims, 5,878 (86 percent) were male, and 961 (14 percent) were female. In two cases, the gender of the victim was unknown. The homicide rate for black male victims was 32.49 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall rate for male homicide victims was 7.93 per 100,000. For white male homicide victims it was 4.44 per 100,000. The homicide rate for female black victims was 4.86 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall rate for female homicide victims was 1.99 per 100,000. For white female homicide victims it was 1.57 per 100,000.

    Age

    Six hundred sixteen black homicide victims (9 percent) were less than 18 years old and 120 black homicide victims (2 percent) were 65 years of age or older. The average age was 30 years old.

    Most Common Weapons

    For homicides in which the weapon used could be identified, 82 percent of black victims (5,308 out of 6,445) were shot and killed with guns. Of these, 72 percent (3,843 victims) were killed with handguns. There were 653 victims killed with knives or other cutting instruments, 248 victims killed by bodily force, and 150 victims killed by a blunt object.

    Victim/Offender Relationship

    For homicides in which the victim to offender relationship could be identified, 75 percent of black victims (2,398 out of 3,206) were murdered by someone they knew. Eight hundred eight victims were killed by strangers.

    Circumstance

    For homicides in which the circumstances could be identified, 71 percent (2,892 out of 4,099) were not related to the commission of any other felony. Of these, 563 percent (1,608 homicides) involved arguments between the victim and the offender.

    Eleven percent (330 homicides) were reported to be gang-related. Thirty-five percent of gang-related homicides (116 homicides) were in California, which may be in part due to more comprehensive reporting. In California, 46 percent of non-felony related homicides were reported to be gang-related.

    http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide11.pdf – pages 2-3

  16. Kelly, you are right about the black community concerns about such “black on black” violence. But they do NOT want to talk about it OUTSIDE the community. It doesn’t play well to admit that the primary problem blacks face are of their own making. Talk to Bill Cosby, Juan Williams, Thomas Sowell and others about this.

    And that’s the key — the “go-to” black leaders are reluctant to go to the general media with their concerns — let alone try to change the “gangsta” culture that has become so pervasive in black neighborhoods.

    While my contact with black communities admittedly is limited, I have been to southeast San Diego and listened to these concerns — in 2005 mayoral forums, among other instances.

  17. Kelly, I’m very much opposed to the incarceration route for young blacks committing drug offenses. Indeed, for decades I’ve recommended legalizing drugs — and prostitution, gambling, etc.

    Moreover, I’ve written critically about the double standard of cocaine incarceration — where crack cocaine generates longer prison sentences than snorting cocaine.

  18. Really? says:

    This post and the author’s responses hit a new low. If you haven’t figured it out by now, you never will. Just stop.

  19. Alger, you may be right, but I doubt it. Most such crime likely are NOT family — especially since most black families have no dad. While the victims and perps may know each other in the community, they usually are acquaintances rather than family.

  20. Erik, I can appreciate your concern. But doubtless you live in an upscale “white” community where the minorities are pretty much assimilated. Your kid’s risk is real, but TINY compared to the risks faced by a kid in a black community.

    If you lived in a blue collar black community, your child’s primary concern would NOT be the police and/or white vigilantes, but rather the gangs and the general “gangsta” propensity to violence. Frankly the risk for a black kid in such a community is probably AT LEAST a hundred times greater than the risk in yours.

    My problem has been the tendency to take this one Florida tragedy and blow it up as some sort of nationwide problem It is not. Certainly not, compared to the REAL problem.

    Indeed, this flap avoids the real problem of black-on-black violence — not to mention distracting from Obama’s failures as President.

    And BTW, without compelling evidence to the contrary, the FL shooter will be tried and convicted of AT LEAST manslaughter. The “stand your ground” defense will not apply.

  21. Erik says:

    I think the point is, Richard, that my son faces a greater risk than his Caucasian neighbor….and that is why we still have a distance yet to go in creating a country where its citizens will be judged not on the color of their skin but the content of their character.

    And yes, I agree that the risks are much greater in poorer communities – but that doesn’t make the FLorida incident any less tragic and upsetting.

  22. Jim Sills says:

    Will the folks who think Rider is “controversial” say the same about this speaker:

    ==========================================================================================

    “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down
    the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around
    and see somebody white and feel relieved…. After all we have been through. Just
    to think we can’t walk down our own streets, how humiliating.”

    Reverend Jesse Jackson
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jesse_Jackson

    Remarks at a meeting of Operation PUSH in Chicago (27 November 1993).
    Quoted in “Crime: New Frontier – Jesse Jackson Calls It Top Civil-
    Rights Issue” by Mary A. Johnson, 29 November 1993, Chicago Sun-Times
    (ellipsis in original). Partially quoted in US News & World Report
    (10 March 1996)
    =========================================================================

    Reverend Jackson is Right on that issue: feeling safe
    in your own neighborhood is an important Civil Right

  23. Jim Sills says:

    The Main Point is that a Disproportionate number of
    Black Men and Women are crime VICTIMS… a key fact
    which is routinely ignored in the MSM.

  24. The sniping here by the emotional left (Really?, Will, Jefferson and Terry) is noteworthy in their lack of interest in engaging me on the facts, or my assertions. Just smears, devoid of content.

    I see much more of this on Twitter. There they are THANKFUL they are limited to 140 characters!

    But then, what, else could they possibly have to offer?

    Credit to Alger, Erik and Kelly for presenting more substantial, reasoned opposition responses.

  25. Jefferson says:

    Of course Richard Rider references Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rider

  26. Steve Rider Steve Rider says:

    This is a complete victory for Obama and the left. All media attention and political forums are now abuzz on the emotional issue of race. Knowledgeable people such the original author of this thread, are now blasting away on this topic as opposed to focusing on the issues that Obama and his liberal comrades hate to address (gas prices, national debt, unemployment, state spending, tax increases etc).

    Beware of more race-baiting, class-warfare, to be perpetuated by liberals as November draws near. You can bet that financials will remain a subject they’ll want to avoid talking about.

  27. Richard made a good observation. The numbers and facts about black-on-black violence are indeed ugly, but nobody on the left can deny them. So they would rather attack the messenger instead.

    By pointing out the racially discriminatory impact of laws against drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc., Richard pointed to steps we can take that would ease this horrible situation, namely legalization. But among many lefties, political correctness trumps human lives.

  28. Jefferson, the Wikipedia article in turn references U.S. Dept of Justice stats. But you knew that.

    Actually, given your intense desire to avoid facts, you might NOT have known that. Nor care.

    Oh, don’t forget to read the article I posted here from your favorite “news” website — CBS — confirming the stats I posted from Wikipedia.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-3153497.html

    I feel your pain — facts are such troubling things.

    But thanks for posting up the link to my superhero alter-ego page on Wikipedia. It’s been posted here before — including by me!

  29. Jefferson says:

    Richard Rider, I was merely joking about Wikipedia. Lighten up.

    Your post was in poor taste and only served as a red herring. I realize it was an effort to deflect the larger debate about the Stand Your Ground law, vigilante justice and due process, but I think it came off as race baiting. I have no reason to dispute the facts you presented, I just don’t think it served as a useful part of the discussion and your usual glib style made it seem dismissive of the underlying topic.

    But at least your son came to your defense.

  30. Jefferson, if you want to see expert race baiting, read the LA TIMES article quoting Jesse Jackson that “blacks are under attack.” He ties this Florida killing into home foreclosures. THAT’s a skill set I don’t possess. But then, Jackson has had a LOT of race baiting practice.
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story

    Of course you don’t dispute my facts — I’m correct. How could you?

    All you can say is that it doesn’t matter,or is not germane (I guess not germane to the 110 murdered blacks [by blacks] each week).

    And, BTW, “stand your ground” will not stand as a defense for the shooter. It was NOT such an instance.

    As I earlier opined here, “without compelling evidence to the contrary, the FL shooter will be tried and convicted of AT LEAST manslaughter. The “stand your ground” defense will not apply.”

  31. Jefferson,
    You said to Richard,
    “Your post was in poor taste and only served as a red herring.”

    Then you said,
    “I have no reason to dispute the facts you presented,”

    So how can presenting factually undisputed information be in poor taste?

    Please explain your standards for deciding which facts should not be discussed.

  32. Erik says:

    While this is all fine and good lets get onto something that actually matters….

    Could someone PLEASE make sure that the Central Committee files away that Scott Barnett signed the OPPOSITION argument to the Fair and Open competition measure (the ban on PLAs). Stunning.

  33. Alger says:

    Erik,

    “The ban on PLA’s” is not a ban on PLA’s. It is a ban on the City Council MANDATING a PLA, an action which no city in San Diego County has ever taken.

    Whether or not this passes, there will still be PLA’s; in fact, If there is a Convention Center expansion, new Charger Stadium or new City Hall, there is a good chance it will be built under a PLA even if this measure passes.

    The problem with the proposal is that due to a recent State law, the City of San Diego will lose State funding for ALL construction projects if this measure passes. Is that really a good idea if all you are getting in return is a prohibition against an action that has never before been taken?

  34. Erik says:

    Here is the text of the actually proposition rosterians if you would like to read it

    http://www.sandiego.gov/city-clerk/elections/city/pdf/fairandopencompetition.pdf

    The operative clause reads

    “22.4402 Fair and Open Competition – Prohibition on Requiring Project Labor Agreements

    Except as required by state or federal law as a contracting or procurement obligation, or as a condition of the receipt of state or federal funds, the City shall not require a Contractor on a Construction Project to execute or otherwise become a party to a Project Labor Agreement as a condition of bidding, negotiating,
    awarding or the performing of a contract.”

    BTW – City School requires bidding parties on their projects be signators to the pre-hire agreement (aka the PSA). Ditto County Water Authority.

    I frankly am at a loss as to how Alger thinks the convention center will be built under a PLA except in so far as I GUESS he could argue that ACME General Contract will voluntarily enter into a PLA and then, in turn, win the contract. Possible but not likely.

    Now the Chargers stadium MIGHT be built that way IF the chargers are the contracting party. But that would seem to entail me making heroic leaps of logic about how ownership would flow to the Chargers and not the city as the lead entity building the stadium.

  35. I’m not alone thinking that the press and the professional race baiters are using this tragedy to inflame anti-white racial tensions — and are avoiding the real threat to blacks. See this retired NAACP official’s comments on this:

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/former-naacp-leader-accuses-sharpton-and-jackson-of-exploiting-trayvon-martin/

  36. Mike Earl says:

    Zimmerman is a Latino………………Comprende?.

    It seems that CNN has played the hole card on this issue. CNN has dug out the facts and gotten the witnesses on screen first,making Fox et al ,looking stupid.

    Why is Rider even commenting on this slug fest shooting. Zimmerman was beaten to the ground. His nose broken and his head la cerated from repeated Asphalt slams. Hey Rider have you ever even been in a fight?

    So many of you political hacks have never seen reality. Typewriter pundits.

    The real interest at this time is the horrible death of an Islamic woman in El Cajon.

  37. Michael A. Schwartz says:

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/report-says-police-reveal-details-of-george-zimmermans-account-of-trayvon/1222087

    Is anyone here embarrassed for jumping all over Zimmerman for being a white, racist, vigilante rather than the Hispanic victim of crime that spent his free time tutoring African America children with reading and was forced to defend himself when a violent criminal attacked him in his neighborhood?

    Erik, to answer your question…anyone who dresses exactly the way a gang member does, lurks around a gated community where he doesn’t live, at night, and violently attacks a volunteer Neighborhood Watch person by breaking his nose and smashing his head repeatedly into concrete runs the risk of being killed in self-defense. No matter the color of their skin.

  38. Gwendolyn says:

    I find the whole argument by Mr. Rider ludicrous and a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from the person, George Zimmerman, who shot Trayvon is still at large and has not been arrested and charged for aggravated assault resulting in Trayvon’s death.

    You can tell when someone is losing the argument. They try to drown you with “stats”.

  39. Erik says:

    Michael – you have GOT to be kidding.

    A) We know that Mr. Zimmerman DID NOT take medical transport. It is unclear/unknown whether or not it was offered. We have yet, even though the police seem happy about leaking information, to see PHOTOS of the supposedly bruised and battered Mr. Zimmerman. Indeed, at this point we have third party hersay about his condition. Having had my nose broken and my head “battered”.

    B) We have NO report at all how LONG Mr. Zimmerman was or was not detained. Was, for example, the gun was placed into evidence to see, for example, whether Mr. Martin’s finger prints were on it? Fiber analysis to confirm that the individuals had actually were struggling prior to the shooting?

    C) We have contradictory testimony from witnesses. At this point we have a NAMED witness, Mr. Martin’s girlfriend, and then unnammed sources that suggest there was a struggle.

    D) At this point I have seen no reports that provide even the simplest information – where was Mr. Martin’s father’s house, where was the truck, and where did the killing occur. A MAP would be particularly useful.

    Finally, to the ridiculous comment about “dressing like a “gangster” I suggest you park yourself in front of any San Diego suburban highschool and observe the clothing worn by AT LEAST one out of every two HS boys. You will see many a hooded sweatshirt, many a baggy pants, and mostly on NON African-American kids. It again stretches the boundaries of common sense to believe that Mr. Zimmerman would have exited his truck to go “play at law enforcement” if Mr. Martin had been white.

    Rostra reaches new lows. I have to say all of you are making it hard to be a conservative.

  40. Michael A. Schwartz says:

    Erik, let’s have a little talk about the English language. The word “and” connects more than one thought together. So if you go back and look at my sentence I had at least four descriptions. So taking one and having it stand alone would be inaccurate. One of those thoughts is “dresses exactly the way a gang member does”. So, was I implying that anyone who dresses exactly the way a gang member is wrong? No. And you’re smarter than that. You know that is not what I meant. But it’s fun for you to be outraged and beside yourself, I get it.
    I’ll leave the parking in front of a school to look at children to you, sir, but if there is an entire school full of little gang member wannabes, then wouldn’t that make sense? I mean you wouldn’t call 911 in that situation because…well…it’s normal, right?
    But take one of those kids (whose parents frankly have no control or influence over their children so they dress like a gang member) and put that kid in a gated community where he doesn’t live, at night. Have him walk around and even run when seen. A neighborhood watch volunteer is trained by the police department to report this. Why? Because it is not normal, is it? It sticks out, right? And most of the people who do break in to houses dress like Martin and run away when questioned. Unfortunately, they don’t return to confront the volunteer and savagely beat him. Would you be equally offended if someone asked you where to buy stamps simply because you were wearing a postman’s uniform? It is the emotionally frail like you, Erik who prevent real conversation which would result in real solutions and a true understanding. Enough with the “I’m so offended and forlorn” load.
    I know the original inaccurate reporting fit your little preconceived narrative of how racist everyone else is, but that’s not helpful to the discussion and has really been proven wrong. Be frustrated. We all are. But grasping at straws to keep your previous statements from looking as asinine as they were and doing a big sigh in front of the computer after scolding the rest of us is pretty childish, friend.

  41. Gwendolyn, go read the LA TIMES article I earlier cited headlined “blacks are under attack,” quoting head race baiter Jesse Jackson. Tell me what home foreclosures had to do with the Florida tragedy.

    How does this Jackson quote sit with you? — “Our disparities are great,” he said. “Targeting, arresting, convicting blacks and ultimately killing us is big business.”

    And why the liberal press print such inflammatory nonsense, or treat the “reverend” with respect?

    But I must apologize on one thing that you rightly called me out on — I DO use facts and stats — and we all know that for liberals, facts are such troubling things. My abject apologies.

  42. Erik says:

    Honestly Michael, go put on a sheet and burn some crosses. You sir, are ridiculously offensive

  43. Erik says:

    BTW Michael – white and asian kids walk around my community (4S Ranch) in hoodies ALL THE TIME. I have yet to see one detained by the Sheriff. My guess is that when my six year old African American son is a teenager we will need to have a chat about why he may arouse suspicion, why it isn’t fair, but it is the world we live in.

  44. Erik says:

    Michael, finally. We have ONLY third party unattributed hearsay that Mr. Martin was “lurking”. By all current accounts he was returning from the store. As noted above, his FATHER’s girl friend was in the community. He was not an unknown stranger.

  45. Michael A. Schwartz says:

    Erik, you’re a crack up. First, you want me to spy on school children and now you’re trying to talk me into the sheets? Wow.
    If you are talking about the KKK, the answer is no, but thank you for the invitation. I am fundamentally opposed to everything they stand for and I am pretty sure I would be the only member with the last name Schwartz and plans on going to his nephew’s Bar Mitzvah later this year. Good luck with your future recruiting efforts.
    I know it is frustrating being wrong, Erik, but calm down. A couple days ago you claimed Zimmerman only targeted Martin because he was black, that Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 100 pounds, that Zimmerman “heroically intervened” by shooting Martin, and that you fear for your son’s safety in his own neighborhood because this incident occurred. All of this turned out to be untrue and/or ridiculous.
    But today your stance is we don’t have all the facts and we need a map and Zimmerman didn’t get in an ambulance and the gun wasn’t checked for blah blah blah. Because it makes more sense that there is a huge racist conspiracy protecting Zimmerman rather than all the evidence points to Zimmerman being savagely attacked after calling 911 on a stranger in his neighborhood.
    It has come out that Zimmerman isn’t white, Zimmerman was the victim of a violent attack by Martin, none of it had to do with race and had everything to do with crime, and that Martin wasn’t the 12 year old innocent looking boy we were all shown a picture of. He was a 6 foot+ tall 17 year old with a questionable background and track record who tracked down Zimmerman and viciously attacked him. Rather than retract the conclusions you jumped to you’d prefer to further attack. I’m a racist and white communities are all racists and it’s all very sad to you. It’s a load. You, sir, are part of the problem. Not the solution. We can’t have an honest discussion about everything that went wrong in the case because your chosen narrative is being questioned. It’s far more comfortable to you to believe a white, racist tracked down a young boy and shot him because he was black and in a gated community. You would rather jump to conclusions than deal in facts that might make you emotionally uncomfortable.

  46. Thor's Assistant Thor's Assistant says:

    Erik, re: your “I have to say all of you are making it hard to be a conservative”…

    For the record, not all commenters here, nor on Twitter related to this post, and among them not all the conservatives, are in agreement on the post or the subject matter.

  47. Michael A. Schwartz says:

    A huge problem has been the horrible reporting on this story. CNN appears to be trying to do a better job: http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

  48. Egad! Juan Williams STOLE this blog item and my follow-on comments, converting them into a WS JOURNAL op-ed.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303404704577307613183789698.html?mod=WSJ_article_comments#articleTabs%3Darticle

    My crack team of lawyers will be in court this afternoon to seek legal redress (and millions in compensation) for this pilfering outrage.

    And doubtless to buy more crack — but I’m not judgmental in such matters.

  49. Erik says:

    Only partially agree about CNN.

    A) Google map the complex. What is being portrayed as “a gated community” turns out to be a run of the mill (at least by SoCal standards) condo complex. This isn’t Rancho.

    B) We are getting selected “leaks” from the police report without much (any?) independent reporting. Conversely, we have a SWORN AFFIDAVIT from William girl friend on the cell phone. Now not a country bumpkin. People lie all the time even under oath. But it is contradictory.

    C) I will once again say that for me the most important evidence that I do think reporters could provide is a “map” with the location of the fathers house, the truck, and then the site of the shooting. Frankly that would help a LOT as to why Zimmerman parked his car, where the altercation took place and the whole “he came back and sucker punched” me defense.

  50. Jim Sills says:

    Folks:

    Can we all agree that as of this writing, NONE OF KNOWS
    for sure just what happened that night?

    Can we retire the Anger and finger-pointing at Rostra,
    and let the Legal Process seperate the rumors from the
    Truth?

    Please… a collective Deep Breath.

  51. Gwendolyn says:

    Thanks Mr. Sills,
    Your plea makes lots of sense. Let the legal process sort it out.

  52. Paul says:

    Statistics used to label an entire racial group as one to be feared is racism. You are grouping peaceful Black Americans, obviously the majority of the population, in with the violent ones and saying they should all be looked at with the same caution. That is the essence of racism, punishing innocent people for a crime they would never commit because they belong to a certain racial group. Anyone who says all white people should be feared because of Zimmerman’s actions is making the same mistake.

    It would make more sense to say that people who engage in violent, bigoted or vigilante behavior should be our concern, regardless of their race.

  53. Mole says:

    Gwendolyn says,”You can tell when someone is losing the argument. They try to drown you with “stats.”

    I have some ocean front property in Arizona with a beautiful view of the Pacific Ocean really cheap. Don’t let any of those “ludicrous” people use a “diversionary tactic” such as “drowning you with stats” about the location of the Pacific Ocean as we all know they are just trying to win an argument. Follow your feelings just like Eric. See you in escrow. :)

  54. So, Paul, the fact that blacks, who constitute 13% of our population and commit 52% of of our homicides should not be even mentioned. Nor should the fact that 93% of blacks murdered are murdered by other blacks.

    Good to know. Be sure to inform Juan Williams.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303404704577307613183789698.html?mod=WSJ_article_comments#articleTabs%3Darticle

    Gosh, where’s your outrage at the stats showing/proving “discrimination” because of the lower number of blacks attending college, or getting jobs, or getting mortgages? This “disparate impact” theory establishes discrimination based solely on statistical differences in outcome — no actual proof of discrimination is needed. The Obama “Justice” Department is extorting billions from banks using this bogus method of establishing mortgage discrimination.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304636404577293622283974562.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_h

    Oh, wait . . . I think I understand. Unpleasant statistics are racist — as is anyone who points them out. Favorable statistics (a.k.a. statistics that you find useful to your cause) require legal action. NOW I get it.

  55. Erik says:

    Mole – now that we have seen a video which clearly shows Mr. Zimmerman NOT in distress what is your opinion? Having had my nose broken twice I can tell you

    A) It hurts like no tomorrow
    B) You bleed like a stuck pig.

    Apparently also Mr. Zimmerman’s head trauma also was so severe as to require magic invisible bandages.

    We also learned that the police thought he should be charged. So, rightfully, now we turn to the prosecutor.

    Richard — black on black violence is a serious issue and one that IS relevant.. However I am not sure it is validly carried out in a few hundred words in blog posts. A critical issue is that you have to determine, as an author, how to treat the murders associated with the crack epidemic – where violence waxed and waned according the degree to which the cartels were consolidating monopoly power in the upstream distribution. If you back out drug related gang violence the numbers start to look not a lot different than other ethnic groups, especially if you also account for higher levels of poverty.

  56. Erik says:

    Finally, and I think we all would agree, on CNN they said something very telling. An important piece of evidence which has not been released (and you just hope it was done) is whether there is physical evidence of the handgun being shot at extremely close range. If there are burn marks on Mr. Martin’s clothing that would be consistent with those providing statements on behalf of Mr. Zimmerman. But what will the supporters say if there are no burn marks? Or worse, if the police did not test the clothing for such evidence?

  57. Eric, the black and Hispanic level of poverty is roughly equal. Yet the black murder rate is roughly triple the Hispanic murder rate. Seems to me that I’ve heard some Hispanics are involved in the drug trade as well.

    I presume you are inferring that the black community glorification of the gangsta culture has little or nothing to do with the homicide rate. I must admit that such a view is, ahhh, counter-intuitive.

  58. Erik says:

    A) Isn’t at all clear (at least any more) that “glorification of the gangsta culture” is limited to the black community. Indeed, as you may know white kids purchase MUCH MORE “gansta” rap than black kids.

    B) I think I could make a pretty compelling argument that there are MANY more black voices calling for kids to turn away from that glorification of violence than there are white voices.

    C) Of course I am going to argue that there is no relationship between it. Otherwise we are down the rabbit hole of saying that because suburban kids in the 1970s listened to AC/DC or Black Sabbath they were one small step from devil worship and biting the heads off bats

    D) The violence in the black community in the 1990s was not that dissimilar to the violence in the inner city neighborhoods in the 1920s….it was a turf battle over monopoly seller rights to a controlled substance. But once the SUPPLIERS of that substance worked out their OWN turf battles, the violence subsided. Pretty interesting (in a sick and twisted way) of how vertical integration can be good for sellers and middle men. Just look at LA County Homicide rates _AND_ drug use. Still got a real problem in drug use but the murder rate has fallen dramatically. To me, vertical integration of the drug trade is the easiest explanation.

  59. Michael A. Schwartz says:

    Erik, I think that is a good point regarding your “C” (AC/DC rabbit hole, etc). The huge difference is scope. Few suburban kids were actually worshipping the devil or biting the heads off of bats. Even if they were the only real danger there was rabies. So it was pretty silly to get mad at bands for putting on a show.
    The violence and glorification Richard and Juan Williams are talking about is real and it is murder. Not bat head eating. Half of murders are of black Americans and causes by other black Americans. We can either tell people who point that out to “go put on white sheets and burn a cross” or we can speak honestly about it in the hopes of one day solving the problem.

  60. Erik says:

    Honestly Michael I don’t even begin to know where to start with this really frustratingly bad analysis.

    A) Gansta Rap is predominantly CONSUMED not by blacks but by Young WHITE MALES.

    B) Where you and Richard fail in your analysis is some basic statistical fallacies. Here is a paper

    http://www88.homepage.villanova.edu/lance.hannon/Forthcoming%20in%20the%20Journal%20of%20Poverty.pdf

    that directly tests your hypothesis. Guess what – once you control for poverty and “urbaness” the racial differences go away.

  61. Barry Jantz Barry Jantz says:

    In the 1970s I listened to those bands, but I didn’t end up biting the head off a bat. I ran for public office. Lord help me.

  62. Michael A. Schwartz says:

    I’m not blaming it on one thing. I am saying that dismissing this one aspect is wrong. There is a cultural problem and part of the problem is the music/videos/movies. There are by far more poor white Americans than black Americans, but they aren’t committing nearly the amount of violent crime proportionately. It’s uncomfortable to talk about, I know, but it only gets worse the further we stick our heads into the sand. Dismissing large parts of the culture that glorify the problem is as silly as blaming it entirely on one part of the culture.

    PS I just pictured Barry in a school boy outfit and long hair banging his head and making horns with his fingers! Wowzaa!

  63. Michael A. Schwartz says:

    Too many are dealing with racism like it is the same problem it was 70 years ago. I didn’t grow up with black servants and seeing water fountains that were for blacks only. Blacks weren’t denied jobs or the ability to serve in the military in my lifetime. I don’t know anyone who can’t get a job because companies won’t hire blacks. A lynching is no more a reality to me than a woolly mammoth. I can’t even fathom a law against interracial marriage. At no time were blacks presented to me as less than human or without the same rights as everyone else. I grew up cheering for Jordan, and worshipping Lawrence Taylor, and watching Bill Cosby.
    It is a totally different world now. But many were extremely comfortable with the idea that some white guy shot a little kid simply because he was black and in the wrong neighborhood. You’re trying to make this thing a simple case of a country full of racist rednecks. Those thoughts are extinct. Move forward. Yes, we need to stop people from automatically treating every black kid in a hoodie like a criminal, but we also need to figure out why so many black kids in hoodies are criminals.
    We need to reject relics like the Black Panthers and the KKK or even references to them like they are relevant or real. People need to be held accountable for their actions no matter their skin color. We need to stop assuming that everything bad that happens to a black American is because they are black and an American. Just get rid of the word “racist” because these days all it amounts to is the end of a conversation rather than the beginning of one. And a pair of blinders so we don’t have to face reality.
    The biggest problem with racism is actions and words of some of the people who hate racism.

  64. Erik says:

    Well I will simply say I strongly disagree with you and I have MUCH more experience in understanding (as some on this site know) from direct experience.

  65. Alger says:

    Michael,

    I truly wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not. Racism may not be as overt as it once was, but it certainly isn’t extinct.

  66. Michael A. Schwartz says:

    Erik, I don’t know how you would know what my experience with racism is. Maybe the same way you knew the details of the case so well that it made you fear for a family member’s life.

    Alger, I didn’t say racism is extinct. I said the way many talk about it and view it should be extinct.

    Anyway…until next time. Take care.

  67. Erik says:

    Michael – if you are Caucasian and have an African American son then we have a similar experience. If not, then I really think you need to put a sock in it.

  68. Jim Sills says:

    Can we stop shouting at each other over this for the time being?

    All the advocates have had their say. You’ve done your duty.

    The other guy disagrees, and so be it.

  69. Thor's Assistant Thor's Assistant says:

    No kidding. A provocative post and a passionate discussion. But, does anyone have anything NEW to say? Ok then.

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